Talk:Alexander Technique/Archive 1
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Alexander Technique discussion page:
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please read the article before you add to it. What you want to say may already be there, perhaps in an already-edited but not-quite-identical form.
I just took off a section added in by someone who had gone to the trouble to make an extra wiki page explaining the principle of "Direction." Obviously they didn't even read the main page because their identical contribution had already been integrated and since edited into an earlier section of the main topic, under "In-depth". So I added their wiki link in the list of links and delected the redundant section they had repeated at the end of the main page. Franis Engel
Would anyone mind if I change the redirect at Directions from here to the Direction disambiguation page? That seems more natural, and it already has a link to here.
Also, Franis - I believe that simply writing from your own experience, extensive though it appears to be, might be considered "original research". Similarly, just because I happen to know lots about unit vectors and am perfectly capable of rederiving the formalism doesn't mean I shouldn't still cite a standard text. Admittedly, most people will not trouble to look up a book in their local library, but original sources and key secondary sources are still nice. It would also help with any lingering aura of the NPoV which this page indicates has troubled this article.
As a purely stylistic comment, I think it would be preferable and more practical to reduce the barrage of external links. Rather than attempting to include and keep up to date all the sundry teacher training courses, perhaps a single link to a site listing all the regional courses and suchlike would suffice. But that is simply my impression as an outsider.
Eldereft 06:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I just took off the "verify" wiki-ism. The content of this article did not come from reading other books; it came from a synthesis of years of first-hand experience with lessons and teacher-training. Insights about how to write about the very subjective experiences of AT were taught to me by a first-generation AT teacher, and honed by many, many other teachers who edited my many years of attempts before I made my writing on the topic public. Because AT started around 1910, there are now only a few "first generation" AT teachers left - that made me very lucky to have started writing and learning about AT since 1978.
If a reader wants verification of any of the contents of the article, they can use any of the links already provided in the "professional associations" or ask any Alexander Technique teacher who is a trained member of a professional association about any point of what is in this article. I could cite as source F.M. Alexander's four books, (which are extremely difficult to decipher, but well worth the effort.) But, it is doubtful that anyone would want to go to that source and read them. A study guide for Alexander's books as a link is already there, but the person who posted the verification request did not even notice it.
After reconsideration of the "verify" request, I've decided to work on adding a very short section, to be included before the other two link sections. I'm thinking of links listing various Alexander teachers' pages on the web, living or deceased, who contributed to defining and developing the content of this Alexander Technique article - in the form of having taught contributors who wrote and edited this article.
So - if you did contribute to editing or creating content for this article and your Alexander teacher isn't listed, find or make your teacher their own biographical web page and list it if you like. Then everyone will know the sources, direct sources which did not come from reading another author.
Franis Engel
Looks good - thanks for your help.
http://www.franis.org/Alexander 28 August, 2005 Franis Engel
Actually, I reorganized the whole text and removed those remaining sections that seemed not NPOV and removed the POV objection at the start. I am fairly satisfied with the generally though it is still rough around the edges in places. It not longer reads like ten brochures for the Alexander Technique pasted together.
Hans Joseph Solbrig 03:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I am re-organizing the first two sections to give them some coherence. Their previous version was repetitious and unclear. I'm sure that the re-organized versions will anoy some and folks are welcome to rewrite. It is simply that the article should be one article, not several somewhat similar articles.
Hans Joseph Solbrig 02:52, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for that. You can experience the effect of the reorganization I just did - I even changed the heading sizes to match the outline form. I guess you should use the most recent version if you want to improve on it.
I've got permission to use a page for Marj Barstow's bio - could someone else write a bio for Carrington and MacDonald who knew them better? It doesn't seem very prominent to list a "prominent AT teacher" when they don't even have a bio link attached to their name.
http://www.franis.org/Alexander Franis Engel 7 August, 2005
I simplified the first two sentences. Whatever my background, I still claim the right to edit sentences to basic readibility.
Mannerism as defined by dictionary.com:
1. A distinctive behavioral trait; an idiosyncrasy. 2. Exaggerated or affected style or habit, as in dress or speech. See Synonyms at affectation. 3. Mannerism An artistic style of the late 16th century characterized by distortion of elements such as scale and perspective.
"Limitations within Mannerisms of movement" clearly is not correct since a mannerism is already a limitation or idiosyncrasy already. But "limitations with manner of movement" might work.
More about organization later.
Best Wishes,
Hans Joseph Solbrig 07:40, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
The first sentence is something that will be changed by whoever comes to the site who is an Alexander teacher - so I wouldn't worry about it's comprehensibility so much. Something was there and it was late at night and I tried to integrate it - I'm famous for switching around words and messing up my prepositions. It should have read "It teaches how to learn to recognize and prevent unnecessary habitual limitations within mannerisms of movement."
BTW, which one sentence definition on my site made sense to you that you think should replace it?
I think your suggestion in the second paragraph is a good way to combine that sentence. "The Alexander Technique refers to the educational methods of Alexander teachers and the individual practice used by students". (I didn’t write it. I was trying to integrate someone else’s editing.) It is confusing – AT teachers demonstrate on themselves the learning process during teaching that students must learn to emulate for themselves and then apply to any activity they want to improve. AT principles are practiced while doing any action; at first for making easier movements. As students gain more ability to observe themselves, they rely less on the teacher’s observations and suggestions. As the student’s ability to choose new responses develops, they discover their own improvements related to their performance. (...that probably should be in the intro following the explanation of the kinesthetic sense.)
You’re right about “use,” but bringing up the term “use” doesn't communicate, IMHO, (I'm not alone in this) it’s just an AT buzzword that evolved for mannerisms some believe the word "use" splits the person into having a body that is "used" by the self. It’s a word that’s incongruent with the rest of Alexander’s mind/body unity principles that I think should be left out. The word "posture" is a problem too beause of how people stiffen themselves when the word is mentioned.
I'm not sure how the sequence of sections you've suggested improves the presentation. Perhaps if we review what is there, recombining to improve comprehension and NPOV can be obvious.
We’ve got now…
- First section with what AT refers to both a method and a practice, one sentence definition, who started it, his lifespan, when he discovered it, a few teachers mentioned that he trained and famous endorsers (someone needs to write something on those teachers and ancient endorsers so the link goes somewhere if these people are going to be mentioned.)
- section as an intro about what it is, what it does for who uses it, the sense that it trains and what criteria it was designed with
- section on the needs it addresses, principle of sensory adaptation, benefits and effectiveness, with qualifiers of its effectiveness under what conditions
- section of Learning and Training Requirements – subsets: using it for oneself, environments of a lesson, and why learn with a (properly trained) teacher, requirements to teach it, teaching styles (perhaps this is where specific teachers and their teaching styles should be mentioned instead of in the first section)
- Disadvantages - Proof, learning time and pitfalls
- Principles and how they work together in a sample lesson
- History
I would say leave the first paragraph as an introductory paragraph, because it’s better to explain one at a time such original ideas such as “direction,” “inhibition,” “sensory adaptation,” “primary control,” “end-gaining” etc. in context so readers can follow them rather than just mentioning them and confusing people and explaining later what they mean.
If we change it so the "sample lesson" follows the teaching as a subsection as you’ve suggested, maybe we could put “Disadvantages” under “Needs it addresses” so it is along with the qualifiers of the circumstances of its effectiveness.
I imagine that the “History” could go in the first section. I can see that the criteria that FM designed AT for which is now in the intro could also go in the first section. And the teachers mentioned in the first section could also go under teaching styles instead.
What do you think of that organization?
I see a disadvantage in grouping the topics together like that - it would end with describing the teaching styles of specific teachers and then mentioning specific names of noted teachers dead and alive. Aside being difficult to write about those subtle differences objectively and possibly divisive, wouldn’t that sound like a bit of an advertisement to end with that sort of thing? Editors who come by would want to add teacher after teacher and describe how great they were and what made their work notable, etc.
Ending on a more factual note I think would be more NPOV. That’s why I split the information about FM Alexander into about his work & lifetime facts in the first paragraph and how he discovered his Technique in the last paragraph. Probably most teachers would reverse that, but then we're ending with an ever-expanding list of "most notable" teachers he trained again...
How do you think we should end it with NPOV?
http://www.franis.org/Alexander Franis Engel 6 August, 2005
The first sentence is still a bit problematic "The “Alexander Technique” refers to the educational methods taught by Alexander teachers and practiced by students" - how do student practice an "educational technique". Do teachers teach student an educational or do they teach them to improve their use (a definition of "use" might make many parts of the article simpler. I wouldn't hazard that, however). It is an improvement since it clearifies the nature of the technique more than previously.
Perhaps "The alexander Technique refers to the educational methods of Alexander teachers and the individual method used by students"? -- Also, I think the first instance should be in bold, not quotes, (that's minor).
The second sentence "It teaches how to learn to recognize and prevent the limitations of unnecessary habit within the mannerisms of movement." is simply incomprehensible.
What the heck is the "limitations of unnecessary habit within the mannerisms of movement"??
I am not attached to my particular simplifying descriptions but I am attached A description simple enough to be understood. You can look at the many examples on your own website attempting to summarize the technique. Many are quite clear. If you don't like my sentence, create a clear sentence along the line of these other clear descriptions. Or quote someone and credit them.
Anyway....
The re-organization seems like an effort at improvement but clearly more is needed. I don't think there's any way around both re-writing and re-organization. These piecemeal efforts might even be making things more of a mess. A section titled "Learning, Training requirements, Environments and Why learn with a teacher" implies a section without a single clear focus even if this is a good title for what is in the section.
What I tried doing at one point was taking the different sentences/paragraph and putting them into appropriate areas. This would involve getting rid of some things, since various pieces repeat basic ideas throughout the article.
I may be mistaken but the Alexander technique as an individual practice involves the use of the four directions, inhabition and related approaches. The section on "What it is" thus should mention this. As it is, this section is mostly an second effort to be an introductory paragraph.
How about...
- one section of the individual practice of the method,
- One section on teaching methods,
- one section on teacher training methods and advantages,
- one section on the benefits of individual practice
- one section on criticism, pitfalls and limitions
- one section on history
Make "a sample lesson" a subsection of the teaching methods.
We put the existing material into these sections and rewriting to make it sufficiently smooth and coherent.
I believe a clear, complete and appropriate definition in Wikipedia would certainly benefit the profession.
Best Wishes
Hans Joseph Solbrig 08:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Hans, take a look at how I've just reorganized the sections. I'm not sure how to make subheadings; but you can see what I tried to do. Franis Engel http://www.franis.org/Alexander
A further beef: The "edit NPOV of last sentence of first paragraph" actually seemed entirely NOT NPOV - taking a somewhat neuteral comment and turning it into a very political statement - "who founded their own work using parts of Alexander's original concepts" underhandly says, as I know Alexander teachers say, that later efforts (Feldenkrais) were just stolen from Alexander. I'm working on a larger re-organizing of this page and I'll probably revert this unless someone has a good argument for it. PS, plus the new sentence is nearly unreadable.
Hans Joseph Solbrig 23:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Just Another comment. I think the article needs to be better divided into sections. As it stands, each section reads like seperate short introduction to the technique from a different viewpoint. Each section should focus on important aspects and be light on general comments - except for perhaps a generally introductory section. The sections I could imagine would be: 1. Intro/In More 2. Benefits 3. Theory behind the technique (merge section "Principles used together" into this) 4. Teaching Methods 5. The Experience Of Learning The Technique a. In daily Life (sub section) b. Learning Time c. Pitfalls Of Learning 6. Questions Of The Validity Of The Technique (include scientific research, institutional validation etc here)
Text from other sections should be merged into these sections. Section names aren't the prettiest but they are how someone would expect a neuteral exposition of the technique to go.
Best Wishes
And understand that the technique is indeed difficult to describe.
Hans Joseph Solbrig (switching from middle to first name)
Joe, I didn't imagine that you added the disputed neutrality icon. But thanks for the lecture on NPOV. I did some more editing with NPOV in mind, especially on that last section. I'll ask for more help with that from other Alexander teachers to improve NPOV further on this topic.
Franis Engel
Franis, My concern with the comment along with the over-all tone of the article is that it takes the position of advocating for a position - even advocating that the reader take a particular action. Whether that advocated course of action is good or not is beside the point. Advocating for the Alexander Technique violates NPOV. It is as simple as that.
If the comment about teacher qualifications could be phrased as the belief of, say, the American Society for the Alexander Technique or some identified authority, then it might not have the same neutrality problem. If other Alexander teachers are working on this, hopefully that they will find a way to represent the opinions of the profession while maintaining NPOV.
The original article would be fine on a website talking about why someone should take Alexander lessons. But it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article. I really do think it is fine article. It simply needs considerable reworking to get NPOV - especially if this is to serve as an authoritative reference for the technique.
Also, I was not the person who added the neutrality disputed icon. The lack of neuteral viewpoint is fairly clear.
Joe Solbrig
Joe, it wasn't a paragraph added my me. (I'm the one who wrote most of this article years ago originally.) It was quite an authoritarian tone; I toned it down and put it in context as "many AT teachers feel that..." It's a professional requirement; to claim to be an AT teacher, you must spend significant years of your life in teacher training in the 1600+ hour company of already trained AT teachers - in teaching, there are no short-cuts or "tricks of the trade." I know someone personally who was injured my a supposed AT teacher who had never attended teacher training. I have seen other bodyworkers who "mimic" what they have seen Alexander teachers do, without having a clue about their actual effects. The warning is a valid concern of the professional teaching orgs. If you're going to pay money for Alexander lessons, why not get the real thing? However, I am currently not a member of any professional AT organization; I did attend formal teacher training and continued my teacher training informally for over ten years, twenty years ago. However, I am a professionally recognized Alexander Technique community member, reviewer, writer and Alexander teacher - if you would care to ask my peers. So getting a reference isn't a bad idea. I often teach and write for free, so marketing isn't very often my objective; education is. At my direct encouragement, this worldwide AT community has reviewed my writing here and edited it anonymously to make it even better. That means we AT teachers tend agree on this article's usefulness and truth in representing AT - unlike many splintered groups of various other disciplines.
http://www.franis.org/Alexander Franis Engel
The claim at the end of the article that there are a number of Alexander Technique "imposters" seems entirely unsupported. I never have never heard of such people and have never seen a reference to such people. It smacks of pure marketing. There are other bodyworkers who may incorporate methods of the Alexander Technique into their methods but these are not imposters by any reasonable definition of the word - they are eclectic body workers. They are not individuals misrepresenting themselves.
Moreover, the entire tone "why you should chose a certified Alexander teacher" is clearly far from the NPOV.
joesolbrig@yahoo.com
I should clarify that I think that the article is fairly good. I think it just needs tweaks to avoid being an Alexander Technique pamphlet. I'm not sure that describing the Alexander technique in words should be a great difficulty. There are numerous books on the subject, some may be obscure but others are fairly clear.
I have changed a few sections for greater NPOV but there's a long way to go. I found quite excellent articles on the technique on the web and I believe there's no reason the Wikipedia article shouldn't also be excellent.
Joe Solbrig
Defining the Alexander technique in words has been a problematic issue for practitioners from the days of Alexander to the present. That is not to say that Alexander himself did not try his best at describing what he felt was an observable phenomenon, as demonstrated by his prolific discussions and a number of published works.
There have also been attempts to study the Alexander technique using post-positivistic methodologies, but none of these studies have been conclusive, primarily since the technique requires a relatively lengthy period of learning for most people and the controls required by this tradition have not to date been satisfied.
Promising evidence generated by studies of the past has led to renewed interest in the technique as a research topic that might appropriately be studied through the more recently accepted means of triangualation involving fieldwork, case study, and perhaps most fundamentally, the establishment of contemporary terms that are useful in describing the method for purposes of study. See "Voice pedagogy and the Alexander Technique" Journal of singing, 1991 by Daniel M. Zipperer in reference to descriptors provided by Mrs. Frank P. Jones.
At least one Journal Direction Journal sponsored by practitioners of the Alexander technique Worldwide continued this attempt to discuss the characteristics of the technique until recently. See the UK site link in the article for the most recent scientific studies.
There have continued to be differences and problems associated with discussion of the technique partly due to the language used by Alexander himself which has been viewed as archaic and long-winded by critics from Alexander's day to the present.
Note: the 'Dewey vs. Alexander' link leads to a vanity page in which an Objectivist student of the Technique attempts to discredit the connection between Alexander and Dewey. A much more honest, and thorough, exploration can be found at: http://www.alexandercenter.com/jd/ which includes links to much of Dewey's writings on the Technique.
"Vanity page" is just name-calling, as is the honesty crack. On the site in question, Dewey vs. Alexander, you will find a collection of short articles arguing that the oft proclaimed association of John Dewey with the Alexander Technique is entirely superficial. The site has many quotes from Dewey not found elsewhere on the web.
The reason it's tricky to describe the Alexander Technique is not so difficult to understand. Characteristic of the practice is that Alexander Technique takes people into the kinesthetic unknown, where the know-it-all side of the talking brain has never been before. Descriptions have improved. The site with the most simplified, easy to understand language on Alexander Technique has been the Performance School in Seattle, WA. They offer an online study guide to Alexander's books. There's even a series on how to teach yourself without an Alexander teacher.
Could we add back an introduction which gives a general overview of the topic? I already did so this morning but was reverted -- Tarquin 12:09 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Oops, guess I was writing it at the time so didn't notice what you had done. The public has somehow acquired the mistaken impression that the definition is a variation on "Sit-Up-Straight School". Addressing this, Alexander teachers often purposefully avoid the use of the word "posture" because people commonly stiffen themselves up in response to it. The unfamiliar freedom a learner must come to welcome is far beyond substituting a so-called "better" posture for a worse one. It is a troublesome paradox to get rid of the misconception that a Perfect-Way-To-Move exists. That said, I agree on a general introduction being useful. So I slightly altered the wording of your intro to hopefully not encourage this public misconception of "selling short" Alexander Technique. Franis Engel
Looks good. -- Tarquin 12:11 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
At the moment, this is so positive about the Alexander Technique that it doesn't really look NPOV. To restore the balance, a lot of the statements in it need to be attributed: "Some people say...", "Proponents of the technique say...". The Anome 16:58 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- I'm not sure Alexander technique has opponents as such. I agree that some things in the article may need attributing but not everything does. -- Tarquin
Concerning Alexander Technique there seems to be only "the yet uneducated" rather than any opposition. Anyone who wants to take the time to continue the investigation firsthand in that field can verify all of its principles from their own self-observation - and that's the point. I took out some of the superlatives in the eighth paragraph, as well as the exclamation point and put some headings in. Does that help enough? Perhaps more of a mention of science that is being done could be included in certain places by someone who knows more about it? I thought including that sort of thing would make the article too long, so I added a hint on the link where some research documentation is.Franis Engel
Ok, I made an edit in the first paragraph stating the the Technique was developed in the "late 1900s" to the late 1800s. I'm sorry, but FM died in 1955 so he could not have developed anything during the late 1900s. I am going to hold off on replacing this mainly because I do not know exactly when FM developed the Technique. My only contention is that the statement which includes 1900s is clearly in error and should be replaced (perhaps "early 1900s" is correct). I encourage: Tarquin to do so sincce (s)he saw fit to re-insert this error. --mporch 21:21, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The "1900s" is a decade. Follow the link to 1900s and see. FM wasn't alive in the 1800s, which is the first decade of the 19th century. -- Tarquin 08:55, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. It seems like a confusing naming convention. Those unfamiliar with this wikipedia-ism will misunderstand the meaning of this sentence unless they follow the 1900s link. Perhaps the sentence could be rephrased so link text is not 1900s but follows the link to 1900s. What do you think? --mporch 02:14, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- It's really a "wikipedia-ism", it's the correct terminology. -- Tarquin 10:19, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why are there no references to proprioception or kinesthesia. The article does use the phrase "kinesthetic sense". --mporch 08:03, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I just made a major edit, trying to take into account the new CAM requirements as well as readability. Yes, I agree that the 1900s decade reference is confusing if you didn't already know the convention. Also, I included references to proprioception, as suggested. Do you think it's necessary to install the link to the words "kinesthetic sense" that lead to "kinesthesia?"--
I see that RSI (under "Who Uses It?" ) could use a link also once I figure out how to do that... Franis Engel 2:01pm 21 May 2004 (PDT)
No kidding about free use; I found this article has been reprinted on nine other encyclopedia-type sites! I figured I'd better get my ducks in a row if that was the case, so I edited the last round myself again and hopefully made it more complete and understandable. p.s: Alexander was alive: 1869-1955, and originated his work during the 1890s, coming to teach to actors in London during June of 1904. 100 year anniversary in London. Franis Engel 3:00am 14 June 2004
Suggesting that the alexander technique is a precursor to other 'somatic' techniques (Rolfing etc.) is divisive. Somatic = relating to or affecting the body, especially the body as considered to be separate from the mind.
alexander teaching is centred around the principle that the mind-body are a 'psycho-physical' whole (alexander jargon).
This is a very complete article, but definately seems to exagerate some things, eg All Alexander teachers humbly consider themselves advanced students of the art. I think that's hyperbole. Could someone who is familiar with Alexander Technique maybe reshape this page to be slightly less... glowing? I felt like I was reading a religious tract at some points, and as a result I don't really feel comfortable editing it without any real knowledge of the subject. -mqbs Oct 24, 2004 11pm
I agree with mqbs, this article needs objectivity. The following sentence, among others, would lead a reasonable person to think he was reading a pitch for a religious cult: "To describe the Alexander Technique (AT) in words is like trying to describe the taste of honey, the colour Green or the sound of middle C." Pass the E-meter brother! Note that I am not criticizing the subject matter, actually I don't know anything about it, I'm just saying the article needs work. Bgeer 05:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
This article needs *a lot* of work - I read the entire thing and I'm still not *entirely* sure of just what the Alexander Technique is. It's either a habit-inducing technique or a habit-removing technique - even though they're polar opposites, I couldn't get a clear sense of which it was! It really needs a cutting down, I think, and it reads too much like an advertisement, or as has been said, a religious tract. A lot of it seems like a load of padding and waffle to make the article longer, and it's difficult to make a case that the article ISN'T at least a little too long - the length, combined with the other issues, made reading it dull and uninteresting, as well as ambiguous and confusing. I recommend a serious rewrite that will describe the Alexander Technique without a load of cultish waffle and remove the POV passages. Rarr 04:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with your summary of the problems but I think you're overstating their extent. A lot of the problem involves the fact that describing the technique is difficult and thus a detailed description of how the technique operate will be at least somewhat confusing and require an attentive reader. Still, the article could indeed be improved considerably. Obviously, we are still waiting for folks to step up to the plate and offer their improvements.
Also, I think the article has improved from where it was six month ago, though having helped edit it, I'm biased.
Hans Joseph Solbrig 07:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia didn't copyright this, because:
Wikipedia's entry as of March 20, 2005, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alexander_Technique&oldid=11380990 CrystalLinks' entry as of March 20, 2005, http://web.archive.org/web/20050320072204/http://www.crystalinks.com/at.html
The beginning of the "in-depth principles" section hasn't changed since March 20, 2005, and therefore it can be shown that the original author is the Wikipedians since on March 20, 2005 CrystalLink's webpage was entirely different, and therefore Crystal Links must of copied it from Wikipedia.
- Anonymous User
Just a comment
I came to the page to get an unbiased introduction to the techique and possibly examples on how it is done, but instead I find this cult'ish page filled with commercial BS... really the technique said to be developed by one man cannot be learned by a person without a teacher?? come on... only sheep will beleve stuff like that, remove the "if you are not part of our cult be gone, or we will come after you" paragraphs it stinks... link to some teachers instead :)