Talk:Hrant Dink/Archive 1
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I think that the panorama of the funeral procession is flawlessly integrated into the article. I sincerely appreciate the time and energy that has gone into this article. If only every entry could be as authorative as this! The discusson page is just as interesting to read as the article itself. mad props to all who have contributed. Eastcoastremedy 02:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I added some more info about the trial. I can help translate as well. -- anon
I don't know what to say. They killed him just because he was different. Now we must wait to see what will the state do and then we must expand this article because current article is really poor for understanding the importance of Dink. Deliogul 14:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- I hope his killer is found and severely tried. I am loosing faith in the Turkish state. --Hasanidin 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- I am sure the state will do all that it can, and the Turkish society at large will support it. There is no need to lose faith :) Baristarim 23:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Although I didn't agree with many of his thoughts and comments, there's no denying that Dink was a brave man.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 17:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hrant Dink was a much bigger patriot than the so-called patriots who kept on accusing him. He fought -and fell- for democracy and an open society. Read one of his last columns (it is now on the Hurriyet website). Describing how he felt after the trial for insulting Turkishness, he likened himself to a pigeon, timid and on alert. He finished his article with "but I know, in this country, they do not harm pigeons". I wish he had been proven right. --Free smyrnan 17:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- Concur... I was really shocked at the news. I had read many of his interviews and, all ideological opinions aside, I always had the impression that he valued his country very much before anything else. Sad... Baristarim 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should also mention somewhere in the article his use of the name "Fırat Dink" with the reasons and the duration. I do not know the details fully. Cretanforever 17:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=193825 Here's a column by Yıldırım Türker about Hrant, but in Turkish. It's entitled "Hrant'ın hikâyesi" (Hrant's story). Shall we add this to the references? Okan 18:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- I added the bit about his official name.. Baristarim 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Outrageous! Another casualty in the campaign of free speech. Still does not look like a good idea to open the Turkish-Armenian border. I hope this tragic murder will be countered by protests and demonstrations. And I hope these political or religious murders in Turkey will stop once and for all... Fedayee 18:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- People started to organize protest meetings. They are walking to Osmanbey (where Dink was murdered) from Taksim. Fedayee, there have been some wild periods in the Turkish dynamics but it is really sad to see the death of a citizen, an educated person. It is sad too loose a bridge between Armenia and Turkey but now he is death and our duty as Wikipedians is to honour him with a nice article. Deliogul 18:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- In a country of 72 million, there are all sorts of people. There are already 70,000 Armenians (citizens of Armenia) living and working in Turkey, so I don't think that opening the border would result in Armenians getting shot :)) There have already been demonstrations... We shouldn't confuse the general standard of society with fringe actions of some groups/people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baristarim (talk • contribs) 21:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
- I was not confusing society with some groups/people. I was implying the work of some nationalists and Islamists by saying "political and religious murders" as there usually are controversial killings such as the death of a priest after Benedict's comments on Islam and then the death of a judge, Dink... Surely if more Armenians cross the border to do business or for any other reason in a country where denial of AG is widely rampant, tensions could arise. He was clearly shot for speaking up about the issue. If more were to cross just to speak up, i'd be afraid for their lives. Anyway nonetheless, I am glad and I must say a little surprised protests came up so early :) - Fedayee 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- No need to be surprised :)) I am sure that all Turks on Wikipedia are also disgusted and shocked by this. Nevertheless, it is too early to say that he was shot as some sort of revenge for speaking up about Armenian issues, I included a ref that talks about a possible link to Hezbollah. Things are always more complicated then they seem in those parts of the world, but again, he could have been shot for those reasons. As I said, in a country of 72m, you would be surprised at what sorts of people there are :) Hrant Dink was not in sync with many of the positions of the Armenian diaspora organizations and he had a much subtle point of view about many issues, nor was he in sync with mainstream Turkish POVs. Mostly, as far as I could tell, he was much more interested in everyday human issues between communities, since he was a leftist activist back in the day. In any case, it is a very sad event. He was a valuable member of the Turkish society and in a unique position that bridged the Turkish and Armenian communities. Baristarim 00:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Photos of the protests would be amazing.
"Hundreds of Turkish citizens gathered outside Agos chanting “We are all Armenians, we are all Hrant Dink.”"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/19/wturkey119.xml
Video of protests: http://videogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/Video.aspx?s=5&vid=474
I think that the OpenDemocracy link to an obit is legit... ?
- I do not think that a ref about a link to Hezbollah would do good to the article... I mean, in the days to follow we are gonna hear various theories and analysis; from Grey Wolves to Kemalists and from Islamists to crazy fanatized teenagers... For sure Hezbollah has not expressed feelings against the Armenians (the recent Lebanese War, were a large Armenian community lives and where the President of the country is half-Armenian, illustrates that perfectly) and, as far as a know, Dink had not expressed any fanatic Christian ideas... Hectorian 01:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Lool. Are you sure you are not confusing this with this?? :)) Baristarim 01:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, u are right, i do confuse them... I do not wanna look like tutoring anyone, but when most people say Hezbollah they mean this:). but still, had he ever been threaten by them, or by Islamists or by anyone else, apart from the Grey Wolves and far right circles? If not, it is like we are just confusing things... Hectorian 01:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- True. In fact, personally I think that Islamist possibility is more on the less probable side. The good thing with Wikipedia is that it gets updated as fast as the news and speculations develop, and the bad thing with Wikipedia is that it gets updated as fast as the news and speculations develop :)) You are right, any speculation at this stage is just that: speculation. The article still needs some syntax and grammer cleanup, so hopefully we will get around to it soon... Baristarim 01:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Any self-respecting Turk is a Kemalist to some degree. I consider your comment an insult.--Doktor Gonzo 12:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Every extreme ideas are dangerous and those who blindly follow them are as well. I suppose I am not talking about the average Turk, so there is no insult, unless u want to. Hectorian 12:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Now you are suggesting Kemalism is an extremist idea. Previously you were suggesting Kemalists are capable of doing this as if there is a Kemalist gang around.--Doktor Gonzo 12:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Every idea can turn to be extremist, depending on how it is used. I do not know who was capable of doing such an evil thing, but I am waiting to see the Kemalist regime's willingness to find the assassins. Hectorian 12:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah that's when they add extremist next to the word for that idea. Anyway, now we are getting close to the core of your suggestions, now you are questioning Turkey's "willingness" to find the assassins. Nice, nice, more honest, I am sure the next one will be better.--Doktor Gonzo 13:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- As far as I know, the extremists (of whatever kind) do not usually add the word "extremist" next to the idea they believe in... I am questioning what the whole world questions. Time will show; I may prove to be wrong, or I may not. (The best one will come if Turkey will prove to be unwilling and incapable to find the murderers). Hectorian 13:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah but I don't think you are an extremist Kemalist. Feel free to use extremist. Anyway I am out.--Doktor Gonzo 13:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- I can't be a Kemalist (extremist or not), for I am not Turkish. Nor did I say that u are extremist, cause your comments are not towards this direction. As I said (and find it quite logical), I am waiting to see what the Turkish government will do... Hectorian 13:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- I am pretty much sure that he will get caught quickly, however it remains to be seen if he was a lone-assassin or part of some group. With the video footage released, he will be found pretty fast I think. Baristarim 13:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- I really hope that he will be caught. The "lone-assassin" or "group" theories would be interesting to be investigated, but, one thing at a time... Hectorian 14:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
to be honest, I didn't know him before.. Now, i know him and it's too late. another peace dove has been hunted down. I hope this time, the outcome will be different than Ugur Mumcu's or Ahmet Taner Kislali's assassinations. Ati7 05:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Hrant Dink's assassination and the subsequent protests really represent a new chapter in Turkey's history. I think that Turkey is closer now to recognizing the Armenian Genocide than it ever was in its 87+-year history of denial. Seeing the public shout "down with fascism" and "We are all Armenians, we are all Hrant Dink" in Turkey on the BBC made me believe that the general public of Turkey is getting tired of the state-line propaganda regarding the Genocide and wants to know the truth about the events of 1915. The eagerness by both the government and the public of Turkey to find Dink's assassins also seems to show a yearning to normalize relations with Armenia. The only reason why Turkey hasn't done so is because of Azerbaijan.
Then again, maybe I'm being too optimistic... -- Aivazovsky 13:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Let's not get carried away :) Turks are tired of journalists getting shot to begin with, and they also value the Turkish-Armenian relationship. From all the footage that I saw of the protesters and TV interviews with people and politicians, the main focus was this. I think that's why there were so many protests, not neccessarily because of some sudden existentialist upheaval - there were many such protests after the assassinations of many other prominent journalists. Plus, "Down with fascism" has been a slogan of left-wing circles in Turkey since the 60s, it doesn't have much to with one event or the other. Baristarim 13:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- I still believe that there is a desire among the Turkish public to learn the truth about the events of 1915 and I still think that they're beginning to get tired of the state's position on the issue.
- And of course they want to normalize relations with Armenia, there is no reason why it shouldn't be done - however, as it is so often done in the Middle East, Caucasia and the Balkans, the greater geopolitical conjenctures always take precendence over such issues that concern the people on the street. I suppose geopolitical games are also important for a country, so there is not much we can do about it I suppose, sadly. That's why it is such a great loss: he was a in a unique position that bridged the Turkish and Armenian communities as someone who had first hand experience with all levels of both societies... Baristarim 13:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Given the history of Armenian-Turkish relations, I would think that the government of Turkey should show the courage to work with and normalize relations with Armenia in the face of pressure by Azerbaijan. If the government really cared about what the people on the street thought, then they would see that they want to normalize relations with Armenia. I guess what I'm getting at is, if nothing else, Turkey should at least consider reopening the Turkish-Armenian border. -- Aivazovsky 14:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- The thing is, the chess games in that part of the world are pretty complicated. Turks also support Azerbaijan, but would like to also normalize relations with Armenia at a state level, so there is quite a conundrum. It is a vicious cycle with many wheels turning at the same time basically. That's why I said that there is not much we can do at the end of the day sadly... Baristarim 14:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
It's also interestng to note that Azerbaijan has remained silent on the assassination. -- Aivazovsky 14:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the relatively recent incident with Burak Bedikyan (Turkish citizen got detained and refused entry into Azarbaijan, with Turkey delivering a note to Baku in the end) really made me feel fed up with Azarbaijan. They do not have the right to pick and choose between Turkish citizens. I feel that Turkey has bent over backwards to accommodate a country that does not return the favor or the respect. --Free smyrnan 15:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Welcome to the intrigue filled world of global geopolitics :) Baristarim 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)